tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post2256342095300897053..comments2024-03-12T03:23:42.976-04:00Comments on NeuroDojo: All lobsters are mortalZen Faulkeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07811309183398223358noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-79118246861546815072013-08-19T20:45:41.356-04:002013-08-19T20:45:41.356-04:00Eric: "They are simply saying that given the ...Eric: "They are simply saying that given the correct environment they COULD live forever unlike humans."<br /><br />And that's <b>exactly</b> the claim that bugs me most, because I have found <b>not one</b> single, solitary, lone shred of evidence backing it up. <br /><br />Zip. Zero. Zilch.<br /><br />Most people seem to be deferring to the NPR interview I mention in the article, which is not the stuff I want to support the claim. I want a paper in a peer-reviewed journal with numbers and statistics and all that stuff so I can evaluate the claim properly.<br /><br />I keep crayfish in captivity, with lots of food and no predators. They die. No reason to think lobsters are any different than crayfish in that regard.<br /><br />The claim “Only die from external causes" or “live indefinitely given right conditions" is virtually unfalsifiable. If I said, “Organism X could live indefinitely in the right environment,” how could you disprove that? You always have the wiggle room of saying, “Of, it was just the wrong environment” or “Oh, there was some undiagnosed infection or ailment.” If there is no way claim can be disproven, it’s probably not a scientific claim.<br /><br />"I've learned not to trust facts from guys in kilts."<br /><br />I wasn't wearing a kilt during the interview. Just so ya know.Zen Faulkeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07811309183398223358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-87297031795464982702013-08-18T02:36:48.012-04:002013-08-18T02:36:48.012-04:00Zen, I really think you're overlooking somethi...Zen, I really think you're overlooking something. Both humans and lobsters die of external causes for the most part, but if placed in the correct environment a lobster could live forever where a human would die of old age. That is the entire idea they are trying to portrait. They aren't trying to say that lobsters never die or that there is any lobsters in the wild that could live forever. They are simply saying that given the correct environment they COULD live forever unlike humans. Besides, I've learned not to trust facts from guys in kilts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07954110168335338523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-18070116402021797832013-07-23T21:28:58.676-04:002013-07-23T21:28:58.676-04:00You're off your game. Successful lab results i...You're off your game. Successful lab results in wistar rats regarding removing the telomere cap resulted in increasing the average lifespan from 1y and 7-8months to 2y and 4 months, showing a dramatic increase in lifespan. <br /><br />I don't know what you consider immortality, but there is a difference between being immortal and eternal life. <br /><br />When exactly in society did immortal mean "cannot die"? <br /><br />Immortal has always meant cannot die as a result of ones own biological functions (or lack thereof). <br /><br />You say there is a lack of evidence to suggest immortality, yet its waving its arma in your face, with data nontheless. Lobsters (and most animals) are not like humans in the sense that they are able to escape all predation and build a food chain topping civilization. <br /><br />The larger an animal gets, the more likely it is to be killed for food. <br /><br />Technically humans and im sure many other animals have the same immortal potential, we are just too dam vulnerable to dna damage and degradation. <br /><br />Your criticism here is unfounded and quite frankly doesn't even make sense.Garon-Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17305834073265826341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-78006732105421639322013-07-02T13:37:45.195-04:002013-07-02T13:37:45.195-04:002 July 2013: For those wondering about claims of j...2 July 2013: For those wondering about claims of jellyfish immortality, check out Deep Sea News: <a href="http://deepseanews.com/2013/07/are-jellyfish-immortal/" rel="nofollow">http://deepseanews.com/2013/07/are-jellyfish-immortal/</a>Zen Faulkeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07811309183398223358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-8057217061091825522013-05-28T11:43:16.118-04:002013-05-28T11:43:16.118-04:00Don: Given the track record of immortality claims ...Don: Given the track record of immortality claims so far, I am dubious about planarians. Yes, they can regenerate, but at this instant, if I had to bet, I would wager they still have a definite lifespan.<br /><br />Joel: References! Thank you! Those help.<br /><br />Artem: "(C)ouldn't you use that size data to get a reasonable estimate of their age?"<br /><br />That's exactly what the estimates of the biggest lobsters being fifty year old (maybe more) are based on.Zen Faulkeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07811309183398223358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-48483939151438716972013-05-28T09:25:17.183-04:002013-05-28T09:25:17.183-04:00If a lobsters are functionally immortal and only s...If a lobsters are functionally immortal and only subject to external threats of death, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that these external threats are a constant probability of death? Or maybe even decreasing probability with time (since the lobster gets bigger and thus might more easily defend itself; although I guess the counterpoint is that it gets more tasty...)?<br /><br />If so, then you would expect a power-law distribution of ages for captured lobsters. I wouldn't be surprised if lobster fishers keep data on the size of lobsters they catch, and if lobsters grow throughout their life (as would be consistent with the functionally immortal view) then couldn't you use that size data to get a reasonable estimate of their age? Looks like a fun stats project.Artem Kaznatcheevhttp://egtheory.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-62463879430024213412013-05-28T07:15:58.233-04:002013-05-28T07:15:58.233-04:00I actually looked at this a few years ago, it turn...I actually looked at this a few years ago, it turns out that lobsters, over time, accumulate a waste material called "lipofuscin", so they do indeed have a measurable aging process:<br /><br />http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6561/is-it-impossible-to-tell-a-lobsters-age/6563#6563Joelhttp://blog.motheyes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-30587429726528192802013-05-27T21:40:58.551-04:002013-05-27T21:40:58.551-04:00If I was going name a creature as being immortal I...If I was going name a creature as being immortal I would be looking at planarians. The asexual species just keep on dividing in half and regenerating. Grow, divide, grow, divide, ad infinitum. You'll note there isn't any "die" involved.Donnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-69855304184777551882013-05-26T15:21:51.562-04:002013-05-26T15:21:51.562-04:00Thanks for the link about the Turritopsis jellyfis...Thanks for the link about the Turritopsis jellyfish. None of this is relevant for humans (contrary to what is implied in that NYT piece). However, I find these oddities of nature quite fascinating by themselves!Christophe L.https://twitter.com/christletnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-88921223012659742172013-05-26T10:47:39.090-04:002013-05-26T10:47:39.090-04:00Christophe: Yeah, I forgot to add in claims about ...Christophe: Yeah, I forgot to add in claims about the jellyfish. The jellyfish story has also been overblown, most notably late last year in the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/magazine/can-a-jellyfish-unlock-the-secret-of-immortality.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0" rel="nofollow"><i>New York Times</i></a>.<br /><br />Here's a post about jellyfish similar to mine on lobsters: <br /><br /><a href="http://ksj.mit.edu/tracker/2012/11/first-we-get-proof-heaven-now-secret-imm" rel="nofollow">First we get proof of heaven; now the secret of immortality.</a><br /><br />Two key extracts:<br /><br />"His contention: the kind of immortality seen in <i>Turritopsis</i> is far from unique. ‘Immortality might be much more common than we think,’ Peterson says. ‘There are sponges out there that we know have been there for decades. Sea-urchin larvae are able to regenerate and continuously give rise to new adults.’ He continues: ‘This might be a general feature of these animals. They never really die.’<br /><br />"But were we not told that this obscure organism, and its lone scientific pursuer, were our best chance at understanding immortality? Now we learn that <i>Turritopsis</i> is not unique."<br /><br />And the second:<br /><br />"<i>Turritopsis</i>, we now find out, is not immortal:<br /><br />"‘That word ‘immortal’ is distracting,” says James Carlton, [a] professor of marine sciences at Williams. ‘If by ‘immortal’ you mean passing on your genes, then yes, it’s immortal. But those are not the same cells anymore. The cells are immortal, but not necessarily the organism itself.’<br /><br />"Humans pass on genes, too. Does that mean we are already immortal? That is, in fact, the principal thing organisms do--pass on their genes. (And the quote itself is confusing. Carlton says the regenerated creature does not have ‘the same cells anymore,’ but then he says ‘the cells are immortal.’ Which is it?) <br /><br />"The disclosure that immortality is being used in some special sense makes everything we've read meaningless. The semantic distinction means we are not talking about immortality at all--merely about reproducing. Far from being a potential medical breakthrough, the 'immortality' of <i>Turritopsis</i> is nothing more than a biological oddity."<br /><br />See also: <a href="http://phylogenomics.blogspot.com/2012/12/twisted-tree-of-life-award-14-nytimes.html" rel="nofollow">Twisted tree of life award #14: @nytimes and Nathaniel Rich on Immortal Jellyfish</a>Zen Faulkeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07811309183398223358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-71210506330768475492013-05-26T09:18:17.364-04:002013-05-26T09:18:17.364-04:00Big animals are not likely to be immortal. What ab...Big animals are not likely to be immortal. What about the "immortal jellyfish", Turritopsis Nutricula?<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_nutriculaChristophe L.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3522311.post-27612962977972250102013-05-24T10:39:56.846-04:002013-05-24T10:39:56.846-04:00As usual, another great post :) Thanks for the cla...As usual, another great post :) Thanks for the clarification about this, since I was skeptical about it too, but wasn't exactly sure why and had to hazard a guess when I was asked about it.missmolamolanoreply@blogger.com